Kagemusha is a movie about a powerful Samurai Lord in 16th Century Japan, who is mortally wounded during a castle siege as he listens to a flute player. A double then takes the lord’s place, and fools the household, most of the staff and his enemies - for three years.
The movie starts with Lord Shingen, his top counselor and brother Nobukado, and a thief who is being considered to be trained as another double. The interview with the thief doesn’t seem to go well until Shingen says to keep him, due to his candor. In the exchange Shingen says he will do anything to rule, and even drove out his own father and killed his brother to get to where he is. The thief noted that he had stolen a few coins, but had hardly done as many evil things Shingen.
The movie starts with Lord Shingen, his top counselor and brother Nobukado, and a thief who is being considered to be trained as another double. The interview with the thief doesn’t seem to go well until Shingen says to keep him, due to his candor. In the exchange Shingen says he will do anything to rule, and even drove out his own father and killed his brother to get to where he is. The thief noted that he had stolen a few coins, but had hardly done as many evil things Shingen.
Image via WikipediaTakeda Harunobu (Shingen)
But Shingen is shot by a sniper as the flute was played, and while he is taken away, he dies. On the way, Shingen has a chance to give his oral will to his generals to keep his death secret for three years, and never leave their domain.
Meanwhile, the thief takes on his role as double passing in review of his troops. Spies verify Shingen as alive and in control of his troops. Back at his castle, Oda is furious when told about Shingen and doesn’t believe it. Shingen, is in a big jar back at his place. The thief broke into the jar, thinking something valuable was inside and discovers the truth, and afterwards Shingen is burried in Lake Sura.
Meeting the household is a more difficult task. The thief meets heir to the realm, grandson Lord Katsuri who says upon meeting the thief - “you are not my grandfather” and “I am no longer afraid of you” the latter of which gains broad lauthger. Meanwhile, his son, Katsuyori is jealous. - he has been passed over for grandson Katsuri.
Shingen is the mountain, and is a part of his army or wind, forest and fire. The family line is: 1) shift of the wind; 2) quiet as the forest; 3) fierce as the fire; and, 4) immovable as a mountain. Shingen is that mountain and his double the thief is playing the part.
At this point, one of Shingen’s allies decides to attack an outlying fort to see what happens. The clan holds a meeting to discuss what to do. The thief has instructions to only speak at the end of the meeting when prompted. The meeting goes as planed until Katsuyori voices support for an attack, in contrast to the rest of the generals, and asks the thief what he thinks they should do. The thief responds by saying the mountain should not move - thereby cutting off his son, and making him lose face.
While Oda goes on to fight another battle leaving his castle, Katsuyori decides to attack it alone, and against the clan’s wishes. The generals decide they have to support Katsuyori by sending troops. In the end, the castle was taken and Katsuyori’s feelings are further hurt when Shingen, as played by the thief, is given credit.
When the thief returns to Shingen’s house he becomes overconfident and is thrown off the black stallion only the deceased Lord could ride. The mistresses come to the aid of the thief and quickly discover he doesn’t have Shigen’s battle scar.
The thief is dismissed at that point and chased from the palace by the guards.
Shingen’s funeral is next which is transmitted to Oda who sings”
Even the 50 years of a man’s life
Is short compared to that of this world
Life is but a dream, a vision, an illusion
Life, once given, cannot last forever
At that point Katsuyori leaves the lake with 30,000 men. Oda notes that the mountain has moved.” The generals are rebuffed one last time, and then join Katsuyori.
Where the wind, fire, forest, and mountain are slaughtered.
Sam Glass: Kagemushta
Divine_Malevolence: 'Twas an interesting decision, setting up the general's listening point just outside the enemy castle's walls.
Sam Glass: yea.. he was the lord... outside the walls... and was shot by a sniper.. what did u think about the way he was shot?
Divine_Malevolence: He made it too easy. Set up white flags and everything. Might as well have yelled "Shoot here!"
Sam Glass: but the sniper.. all he did was tie a string to the end of his rifle when he saw the chair.. and then later in the night balanced the musket at the same spot.. shot and then heard the commotion
Divine_Malevolence: But it wasn't a lucky shot. He knew someone important was going to be there.
Sam Glass: ok, then it was an extremely smart shot in the dark.
Divine_Malevolence: True. But it was a shot that shouldn't have been made possible.
Sam Glass: yea.. dumb of the lord Shingen... and what about how his general talked to him before.. called him a minature monkey!
Divine_Malevolence: Mountain monkey!
Sam Glass: oh yea.. but again.. a trusted man speaking his mind
Divine_Malevolence: Shingen liked honest people. Thus why he chose his generals, and his double.
Divine_Malevolence: An "Honest thief."
Sam Glass: yea.. the next double...seems to be a theme in Samurai movies... and what did u think about Oda?
Divine_Malevolence: He was slightly cocky.....
Sam Glass: yea.. did u catch he was Catholic? the hat on a pole?
Divine_Malevolence: That was amusing. "Why are there these three white guys here!?"
Sam Glass: Later on historically I seem to recall they were purged. OK, so Shingen dies but has an oral will that they will keep it a secret for three years.. and not move... good idea? Practical?
Divine_Malevolence: His will is to leave his opponents in the dark, so that they won't attack his lands when they are weak. It gave his people time to strengthen themselves after his death.
Sam Glass: OK, that was the idea... but did he have one double or two. Was Nakebuno a kind of double too?
Divine_Malevolence: Nakebuno was his brother, no?
Sam Glass: ohh... they almost had the same mannerisms and looked alike.. ok.. then the spies verified Shingen was with his troops.. but they also say the coffin jar in the lake...
Divine_Malevolence: They thought for a moment that Shingen had been buried in the lake. But then the generals stated they were sacrificing sake to the lake gods.
Sam Glass: but they were right!
Divine_Malevolence: But they never reported it!
Sam Glass: Yea.. and then the Thief had to meet Tokemaru.. the grandson and heir.. and his black stallion
Divine_Malevolence: And he wasn't scary enough.
Sam Glass: lol...they skipped the stallion.. and the mistresses? he tries to tell them the truth and they laugh.
Divine_Malevolence: "He must not exert himself!"
Sam Glass: yea.. but they think he was joking.. and his son
Divine_Malevolence: They did. I was confused at the end of that scene.
Sam Glass: Katsuori has been passed over for the grandson.. is not happy to have to be polite to the thief for three years
Divine_Malevolence: He was a very angry fellow.
[10:57:37 AM] Sam Glass: Yea.. so Oda doesn't believe any of this.. thinks Shingen is dead so attacks outlying fortresses..
Divine_Malevolence: He feels something is off! But he can't quite put his finger on it
Sam Glass: I thought it was a good strategy to see what they would do... but it ends up with a clan meeting... where the thief has to perform as Shingen
Divine_Malevolence: "Do not move!" He was put on the spot and performed admirably. Then the son went and attacked a castle without consulting anyone.
Sam Glass: Yes.. Katsuori doesn't foillow the script for the meeting the generals want and provolks the thief.. an attempt to show he is a fraud.. but the thief can only think of not moving the mountain.. which is a slap in Katsuori's face because he wanted to attack
Divine_Malevolence: Katsuyouri was a hothead. More of an antagonist than Oda.
Sam Glass: Katsuori was publicly humiliated by the thief, no? Son wanted to attack.. thief played his line and wouldn't move..made son more angry
Divine_Malevolence: Son couldn't attack. But did anyway. Then everybody else move and won the battle by scaring the enemy.
Sam Glass: But Katsuori had his own army.. so he could and did attack.. the rest of the clan then was put in a difficult position...
Divine_Malevolence: An extremely difficult position. Multiple times, in fact.
Sam Glass: impetuous?
Divine_Malevolence: Hotheaded.
Sam Glass: and roughly handled.. I would understand his anger.. passed over for his son as far as ruling.. and then publicly humiliated when they were being attached.. not defending their territory.. I would probably be mad too.. and hotheaded..
Divine_Malevolence: But it wouldn't be a good idea to put everybody else's hard work at risk like that.
Sam Glass: Yea.. but for someone raised as a leader it is hard to be treated that way... So the rest of the clan.. fire.. wind... forest.. and mountain follow
Divine_Malevolence: Wind, forest, fire, mountain.
Sam Glass: yea
Divine_Malevolence: Cavalry strike like the wind.
Sam Glass: swift as wind
Divine_Malevolence: Infantry advance like the forest.
Sam Glass: quiet as the forest
Divine_Malevolence: Third group strikes like the fire.
Sam Glass: fierce as fire
Divine_Malevolence: And the leader stands resolute like a mountain.
Sam Glass: immovable as the mountain.. so they attack together and take the castle.. Shingen had never been able to do it...and the son?
I believe the enemy ended up fleeing.
Sam Glass: Yep. and Katsuroi is even more angry...because a dead man gets credit
Divine_Malevolence: Very angry. Can't get out of his pops's shadow.
Sam Glass: So they go back to the castle and the thief?
Divine_Malevolence: This where he falls of the horse?
Sam Glass: overconfident..decides he is better than he really is and gets off message and starts making mistakes.. and falls off stallion
Divine_Malevolence: And then the mistresses notice he doesn't have the battle scar.
Sam Glass: those pesky women! always notice those pesky things like body traits
Divine_Malevolence: I would've inflicted a similar scar if I was among the generals. Would've made sense.
Sam Glass: yea.. good point.. it would have come up at some time
Divine_Malevolence: Yup yup.
Sam Glass: so they have the funeral... and Oda sings!
When the 50 years of a man's life
is short compared to that of this world
life is but a dream, a vision, an illusion
life, once given., cannot last forever
Divine_Malevolence: Everybody's sad about it. The double wants to see the kid.
Sam Glass: yea.. a common theme in these movies
Divine_Malevolence: And the son decides to be a moron.
Sam Glass: And the mountain moves!
Divine_Malevolence: And it crumbles like a mountain would if it ever did move.
Sam Glass: Oda: "the mountain has moved.." and they are slaughtered...
Divine_Malevolence: Horribly so.
Sam Glass: so what did you get out of the movie?
Divine_Malevolence: Being someones double is rough.
Sam Glass: yea.. lots of things to think about and as you said they could have done more.. I see the Buddhist themes again.. about life and death.. they are all so fearless...and have thought through it.. the women were not powerful again.. but played key roles
Divine_Malevolence: The only people who noticed.
Sam Glass: only ones who probably could.. wonder why they didn't bring them in like his retainers.. can't trust them? like generals? does that say something about what they think about women?
Divine_Malevolence: I'm assuming the double tried to bring them in.
Sam Glass: he did but they laughed at him... ok.. anything else? nope?
Sam Glass: Ichi or Last Samurai next?
Divine_Malevolence: Last first.
Sam Glass: OK.. Last Samurai is only on DVD - so it'll take a week to get it to you.. u ok with Ichi this week?
Divine_Malevolence: Very well.
Meanwhile, the thief takes on his role as double passing in review of his troops. Spies verify Shingen as alive and in control of his troops. Back at his castle, Oda is furious when told about Shingen and doesn’t believe it. Shingen, is in a big jar back at his place. The thief broke into the jar, thinking something valuable was inside and discovers the truth, and afterwards Shingen is burried in Lake Sura.
Meeting the household is a more difficult task. The thief meets heir to the realm, grandson Lord Katsuri who says upon meeting the thief - “you are not my grandfather” and “I am no longer afraid of you” the latter of which gains broad lauthger. Meanwhile, his son, Katsuyori is jealous. - he has been passed over for grandson Katsuri.
Shingen is the mountain, and is a part of his army or wind, forest and fire. The family line is: 1) shift of the wind; 2) quiet as the forest; 3) fierce as the fire; and, 4) immovable as a mountain. Shingen is that mountain and his double the thief is playing the part.
At this point, one of Shingen’s allies decides to attack an outlying fort to see what happens. The clan holds a meeting to discuss what to do. The thief has instructions to only speak at the end of the meeting when prompted. The meeting goes as planed until Katsuyori voices support for an attack, in contrast to the rest of the generals, and asks the thief what he thinks they should do. The thief responds by saying the mountain should not move - thereby cutting off his son, and making him lose face.
While Oda goes on to fight another battle leaving his castle, Katsuyori decides to attack it alone, and against the clan’s wishes. The generals decide they have to support Katsuyori by sending troops. In the end, the castle was taken and Katsuyori’s feelings are further hurt when Shingen, as played by the thief, is given credit.
When the thief returns to Shingen’s house he becomes overconfident and is thrown off the black stallion only the deceased Lord could ride. The mistresses come to the aid of the thief and quickly discover he doesn’t have Shigen’s battle scar.
The thief is dismissed at that point and chased from the palace by the guards.
Shingen’s funeral is next which is transmitted to Oda who sings”
Even the 50 years of a man’s life
Is short compared to that of this world
Life is but a dream, a vision, an illusion
Life, once given, cannot last forever
At that point Katsuyori leaves the lake with 30,000 men. Oda notes that the mountain has moved.” The generals are rebuffed one last time, and then join Katsuyori.
Where the wind, fire, forest, and mountain are slaughtered.
Sam Glass: Kagemushta
Divine_Malevolence: 'Twas an interesting decision, setting up the general's listening point just outside the enemy castle's walls.
Sam Glass: yea.. he was the lord... outside the walls... and was shot by a sniper.. what did u think about the way he was shot?
Divine_Malevolence: He made it too easy. Set up white flags and everything. Might as well have yelled "Shoot here!"
Sam Glass: but the sniper.. all he did was tie a string to the end of his rifle when he saw the chair.. and then later in the night balanced the musket at the same spot.. shot and then heard the commotion
Divine_Malevolence: But it wasn't a lucky shot. He knew someone important was going to be there.
Sam Glass: ok, then it was an extremely smart shot in the dark.
Divine_Malevolence: True. But it was a shot that shouldn't have been made possible.
Sam Glass: yea.. dumb of the lord Shingen... and what about how his general talked to him before.. called him a minature monkey!
Divine_Malevolence: Mountain monkey!
Sam Glass: oh yea.. but again.. a trusted man speaking his mind
Divine_Malevolence: Shingen liked honest people. Thus why he chose his generals, and his double.
Divine_Malevolence: An "Honest thief."
Sam Glass: yea.. the next double...seems to be a theme in Samurai movies... and what did u think about Oda?
Divine_Malevolence: He was slightly cocky.....
Sam Glass: yea.. did u catch he was Catholic? the hat on a pole?
Divine_Malevolence: That was amusing. "Why are there these three white guys here!?"
Sam Glass: Later on historically I seem to recall they were purged. OK, so Shingen dies but has an oral will that they will keep it a secret for three years.. and not move... good idea? Practical?
Divine_Malevolence: His will is to leave his opponents in the dark, so that they won't attack his lands when they are weak. It gave his people time to strengthen themselves after his death.
Sam Glass: OK, that was the idea... but did he have one double or two. Was Nakebuno a kind of double too?
Divine_Malevolence: Nakebuno was his brother, no?
Sam Glass: ohh... they almost had the same mannerisms and looked alike.. ok.. then the spies verified Shingen was with his troops.. but they also say the coffin jar in the lake...
Divine_Malevolence: They thought for a moment that Shingen had been buried in the lake. But then the generals stated they were sacrificing sake to the lake gods.
Sam Glass: but they were right!
Divine_Malevolence: But they never reported it!
Sam Glass: Yea.. and then the Thief had to meet Tokemaru.. the grandson and heir.. and his black stallion
Divine_Malevolence: And he wasn't scary enough.
Sam Glass: lol...they skipped the stallion.. and the mistresses? he tries to tell them the truth and they laugh.
Divine_Malevolence: "He must not exert himself!"
Sam Glass: yea.. but they think he was joking.. and his son
Divine_Malevolence: They did. I was confused at the end of that scene.
Sam Glass: Katsuori has been passed over for the grandson.. is not happy to have to be polite to the thief for three years
Divine_Malevolence: He was a very angry fellow.
[10:57:37 AM] Sam Glass: Yea.. so Oda doesn't believe any of this.. thinks Shingen is dead so attacks outlying fortresses..
Divine_Malevolence: He feels something is off! But he can't quite put his finger on it
Sam Glass: I thought it was a good strategy to see what they would do... but it ends up with a clan meeting... where the thief has to perform as Shingen
Divine_Malevolence: "Do not move!" He was put on the spot and performed admirably. Then the son went and attacked a castle without consulting anyone.
Sam Glass: Yes.. Katsuori doesn't foillow the script for the meeting the generals want and provolks the thief.. an attempt to show he is a fraud.. but the thief can only think of not moving the mountain.. which is a slap in Katsuori's face because he wanted to attack
Divine_Malevolence: Katsuyouri was a hothead. More of an antagonist than Oda.
Sam Glass: Katsuori was publicly humiliated by the thief, no? Son wanted to attack.. thief played his line and wouldn't move..made son more angry
Divine_Malevolence: Son couldn't attack. But did anyway. Then everybody else move and won the battle by scaring the enemy.
Sam Glass: But Katsuori had his own army.. so he could and did attack.. the rest of the clan then was put in a difficult position...
Divine_Malevolence: An extremely difficult position. Multiple times, in fact.
Sam Glass: impetuous?
Divine_Malevolence: Hotheaded.
Sam Glass: and roughly handled.. I would understand his anger.. passed over for his son as far as ruling.. and then publicly humiliated when they were being attached.. not defending their territory.. I would probably be mad too.. and hotheaded..
Divine_Malevolence: But it wouldn't be a good idea to put everybody else's hard work at risk like that.
Sam Glass: Yea.. but for someone raised as a leader it is hard to be treated that way... So the rest of the clan.. fire.. wind... forest.. and mountain follow
Divine_Malevolence: Wind, forest, fire, mountain.
Sam Glass: yea
Divine_Malevolence: Cavalry strike like the wind.
Sam Glass: swift as wind
Divine_Malevolence: Infantry advance like the forest.
Sam Glass: quiet as the forest
Divine_Malevolence: Third group strikes like the fire.
Sam Glass: fierce as fire
Divine_Malevolence: And the leader stands resolute like a mountain.
Sam Glass: immovable as the mountain.. so they attack together and take the castle.. Shingen had never been able to do it...and the son?
I believe the enemy ended up fleeing.
Sam Glass: Yep. and Katsuroi is even more angry...because a dead man gets credit
Divine_Malevolence: Very angry. Can't get out of his pops's shadow.
Sam Glass: So they go back to the castle and the thief?
Divine_Malevolence: This where he falls of the horse?
Sam Glass: overconfident..decides he is better than he really is and gets off message and starts making mistakes.. and falls off stallion
Divine_Malevolence: And then the mistresses notice he doesn't have the battle scar.
Sam Glass: those pesky women! always notice those pesky things like body traits
Divine_Malevolence: I would've inflicted a similar scar if I was among the generals. Would've made sense.
Sam Glass: yea.. good point.. it would have come up at some time
Divine_Malevolence: Yup yup.
Sam Glass: so they have the funeral... and Oda sings!
When the 50 years of a man's life
is short compared to that of this world
life is but a dream, a vision, an illusion
life, once given., cannot last forever
Divine_Malevolence: Everybody's sad about it. The double wants to see the kid.
Sam Glass: yea.. a common theme in these movies
Divine_Malevolence: And the son decides to be a moron.
Sam Glass: And the mountain moves!
Divine_Malevolence: And it crumbles like a mountain would if it ever did move.
Sam Glass: Oda: "the mountain has moved.." and they are slaughtered...
Divine_Malevolence: Horribly so.
Sam Glass: so what did you get out of the movie?
Divine_Malevolence: Being someones double is rough.
Sam Glass: yea.. lots of things to think about and as you said they could have done more.. I see the Buddhist themes again.. about life and death.. they are all so fearless...and have thought through it.. the women were not powerful again.. but played key roles
Divine_Malevolence: The only people who noticed.
Sam Glass: only ones who probably could.. wonder why they didn't bring them in like his retainers.. can't trust them? like generals? does that say something about what they think about women?
Divine_Malevolence: I'm assuming the double tried to bring them in.
Sam Glass: he did but they laughed at him... ok.. anything else? nope?
Sam Glass: Ichi or Last Samurai next?
Divine_Malevolence: Last first.
Sam Glass: OK.. Last Samurai is only on DVD - so it'll take a week to get it to you.. u ok with Ichi this week?
Divine_Malevolence: Very well.
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